Hitting Curves
 

Been reading on how Jack Nicklaus the ultimate golf tactician played shots according to the "percentages" and disected golf courses.

He said that he would try to aim left of the pin and cut the ball mostly into the pin in order to have the most margin for error.

How much "cut" do you reckon he played for? 5 yards? 10? 15?

He wrote the book in the 70's and 80's so do you think he would still advise this type of strategy? Or was it because the "old" ball curved more? Does anybody other than Corey Pavin and Tiger play like this anymore?

I remember reading in some book, might have been Mark James's autobiography, that the author played with Nicklaus at the height of his powers. It was the author's recollection that usually Jack would cut it 3 or 4 yards right, but on bad slices he'd lose it 10 yards right - with his driver!!!!

Probably the intimidation factor talking.

I think Jack just PLAYED the golf course better than anybody ever has . . . Everybody was all geeked when Eldrick won the British Open so impressively by only hitting ONE DRIVER all week . . . and then Pavin follows up by winning hitting 160 yard knock-down slider 5 irons where the other cats are hitting 8 irons. That is the true BEAUTY of the game . . . strategy, shot making, and mental toughness.

The hell with all this bang it 350 yards and flip a lob wedge up there. Who freakin' cares??? Not me anyway.

Jack said he didn't really start winning at the Pro level until he figured out that golf was a PRECISION game not a brute force game.

Hmmmmm....for me, I really enjoy smacking one long and straight or with a slight draw...hit a few last weekend....hit the driving range net 250 yards out on the fly...thanks Mr. Tomasello and Homer. :)

DG

Looking at all the key PGA stats for 2006 there is one stat (other than scoring average) that stands out -- Par 5 Birdie Leaders
The top three:
1 1 Vijay Singh
2 2 Tiger Woods
3 3 Phil Mickelson

I think it's a very valid strategy...100%.

Cause Jack didn't dink it either. He did play a power game.

But he just tried to make sure he missed right I think....i.e. aim left play for a 5 yard fade.....if it misses it will be a 10 yard fade or w/e....still in play......predictable so you can play for it.....fades sit on greens.....

Ya...there's that story about how Jack (as an amateur) played with Hogan in the US Open. (I think) After the tournament Hogan said Jack coulda won easily if he knew how to manage the course better.

I tried to find a link to some kind of article but can't remember where I saw this.

The toughest shot to hit is a straight ball. Your shot needs to be curving one way or another. Not big but something. My biggest problem is the "double cross" when I am playing poorly, when I'm playing well it's not how good my good shots are it's how good my bad shots are! Nicklaus hit high fades that truly moved very slightly. Quite impressive.

Welcome Patrick O'Hara!
 

Welcome aboard, Patrick. And thanks for this first post. Keep'em coming!

P.S. Patrick O'Hara has been a PGA professional for 22 years and is currently general manager of the Las Vegas Paiute Golf Resort. Visit their website at http://www.lvpaiutegolf.com.

Swinger-Fades
 

Do any of you Swingers produce FADES by employing Angled Hinging, or do you just adjust your Fix and Address alignments, and still use Horizontal Hinging?

It was the 1960 US Open at Cherry Hills where Arnie came back from 7 shots to beat Hogan and Nicklaus. Hogan had a chance to win this won but spun his wedge on #17 into the water's edge and failed to get it up and down. Hogan and Nicklaus were paired together and he told the press that if the kid he played with ever learned to manage his game that we would be a world beater. Guess he was right!!

It depends on the shot,if i'm swinging a long iron or on a full -out shot,I'll adjust my alignments.
For less than full power i'll angle ,or even vertical, hinge.

Yoda:
Thanks for the warm welcome. I just relocated to Las Vegas from Omaha and I'm looking to connect with a TGM instructor or student of the game. I see John Reigger calls Henderson home but I know he is busy with his full time job. Anyone else in LV that you would recommend talking to to discuss the TGM?
Thanks,
Pat

Viva Las Vegas -- TGM Style
 

Pat,

John Riegger plays out of his club, TPC Summerlin in Las Vegas, and is headed for his early 'stompin' grounds' in Paducah, Kentucky, this week. I'll be talking with him tomorrow and will ask if he has any recommendations for you.

Meanwhile, thanks again for your posts. We are delighted you have chosen to associate with us at LBG. :)

I have never met John but know a few of his college team mates. JC Anderson, Trevor Dodds and Phil Jonas. Would like to meet him. Maybe at the LV Invitational. The golf world sure is small!

And it probably looks about the same for 2007. However, par 3 stats are usually over par. To me that is an indication for the non-bombers to take some advantage with precision irons. Or what about par 4s, more of those than long and short holes.

My memory may fail mer here, but in the days of Palmer, Nicklaus, Player and Trevino they played their longer irons better than the present generation of pros, simply because on a par four they may play driver 5I, where today it is wok-skillet LW #3. So they needed to be good with a 5I on more occasions than only on tee from a par 3...., but I might be a delusional nostalgic.

#21 06-18-2008, 09:00 AM
Hennybogan
LBG Pro Contributor Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 154

Hogan vs. Tiger

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathew
Unfortunately Darruis, YOU ARE WRONG.

Ok lets just go along with these assumptions just for now even though they are heavily weighted towards your arguement.



You don't just divide the driving distance (yards) by the fairway with the half of the fairways width(yards) and expect to find anything useful. All you have found is the difference between a fifteenth of their driving distance - you could of just subtracted their driving distances together and divided by 15 and you would of come up with the same answer....an answer which isn't much use for anyone. It doesn't say much about your maths skills or those of GPStyles who seems to think your akin to Albert Einstein.

The correct differences are these.... I've omitted the sums because you won't understand them anyhow...

Woods hitting 300 yards onto a 30 yard fairway has 5.73197 degrees margin for error.

Hogan hitting 250 yards onto a 30 yard fairway has 6.87963 degrees margin for error.

So hogan at 80% FIR having to be 83.4% less accurate than Woods would only hit the fairway 66% of the time at 300 yards.



So where you plucked this number from I do not know - perhaps you clicked your heels together three times.

The pure maths is pointless to the debate and anyhow the maths becomes more in Tigers favour when you increase the fairway from the super tight hypothetical width you set. I could think of plenty of arguements that when added up make the maths arguement sound silly. It would be like a game of Jenga but its your arguement falling after each one of these blocks (variables you have not accounted for) and you couldn't even set the game properly up to begin with because you suck at Maths.

My feeling is that Wood's golf stroke is better than Hogans... You just wanted to try and own me - You tried and you failed... Try harder next time.

HENNY's Answer

Matthew,

I don't dispute your math. Longer shots on the same angle off line miss the target by more distance. Simple right? Watch the Hogan vs. Snead Shell match at Houston CC. Balls are not just catching the fairway. Hogan is curving the ball so it stays in the center of the fairway as the hole doglegs. "Fit to fairway like hand to glove." This where math gets lost. If the ball is not deflected from the target line, the distance does not factor.

Mike O's Questions:
Henny or anyone else,
I'd like to hear more about working the ball - Both Ways - in regards to course management. How many of the PGA tour pros work the ball both ways - as a particular hole requires? What are some of the common situations or tips for when to work the ball, etc?

Also, Here's my quiz question: When would you NOT want a ball curving in the same direction as the dogleg - "Fit to fairway like hand to glove"?

Someone discovered the bold button and the font drop down . . . .

It is during these times of increased mental capacity that unfortunately people tend to disappear and to later be found bound and gagged . . . dead or worse. If a strange man wearing a Speedo with a potato in the back approaches you at a gas station or a porn shop with breath that smells like he has been licking peoples' arm pits that live at bus stations . . . do not make any sudden moves, return any open mouth kisses, or respond to more than playful slaps on the butt . . . . slowly remove yourself from the area and bathe. This person is extremely dangerous to humans and livestock.

Bagger has no idea how many "lurkers" are really worm infested bodies in my backyard! But my ultimate catch will be when the 12 piece goes silent.&D:

Hidden Pieces
 

Rumor has it that MikeO is moving to the East Coast soon. Its making a lot more sense now. Bigger backyard needed and closer to "the prize". Bucket has been very quiet here lately. Is he changing identity?

He is going through an identity change but I really thought that was too personal - to be discussed on the forum. Bagger, due to how busy he is - could you access his personal profile and update his interests from just BBQ to "BBQ, Goats, and Threadjacking"- I think that for new forum members coming on to the site- that might be helpful information.
Thanks!

I think the "thread" part is a bit too specific . . . If you take that part away . . . we're probably good.

Also . . . do you mean BBQ'd goat or BBQ & goats? Just want to be sure that our selected language communicates the intended message with precision . . . . the precision is certainly in the details.

By the way . . . did that sore on your lip clear up?

The doctor said it was contagious and therefore he recommended that you see your doctor also.

Should we keep this up since Henny is ignoring your retarded question?

Probably- but if you were a real man - you'd answer the QUESTION! Wasn't that your post to me awhile back "Just answer the question moron!" Back atcha! At the very least you'd have at least one course management tidbit that you could give up!?

Without reading any more of the posts, I'll say Bubba Watson likes to work the ball. I've heard Tiger plays practice rounds with him just to watch his shot making.

Oops! I didn't realize that this thread had degenerated into a weinerfest...:eyes:

First of all let's make sure that everyone who hasn't met me understands . . . I am in NO WAY a "real man." I am a little yellow spined girly man (in addition to being slightly obese and looking like an orangutan with a receeding hair line and poor spelling).

BUT . . . in my conversations with Henny . . . paraphrasing since he has you on terminal ignore . . . . "Most pros don't curve it much. The just get the number and fly it there on most courses. They hit their shot." But on some courses they do curve it . . . depends on the course. Now Henny Weener may come back and correct my ass but I remember us having that discussion.

That whole hand to glove deal . . . is curving the ball so it never leaves the center of the fairway . . . . moves right down the middle the whole way according to Henny.

And lets keep my tidbit outta this.

curves
 

Mike O,

Sorry about the delay. There might be a situation with a sloping fairway or something like that.

Most pros would like to think that they curve it both ways at will, but few of them have the control to consistantly pull off the shots. Basically, they play their standard shot and curve it less when they want to "work it the other way."

Many pros do work the ball with or against the wind with mid irons. They often change the trajectory.

My advice would be to play the shape you are most comfortable with and adjust your aim. Personally, I like to draw the ball, but I do have a standard cut tee shot when there are trees too close on the right.

Early time tomorrow, off to bed.

Early To Bed . . .
 

That would be at 7:23 a.m. on John Riegger's bag at the Legends Reno-Tahoe Open http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/r472/, playing with 2-time U.S. Open winner Lee Janzen and Charles Warren. Good luck, Henny and John!

Thanks,
Nice to know and Yes, that was the answer that I had in mind- I was playing a hole at a course which I wasn't familiar with and the third time around I finally realized that because it sloped so much to the right and also the dogleg was to the right and since the fairway was fairly hard and fast- I created a much bigger fairway by moving the shot against the hill and in a direction opposite from the movement of the dogleg.