I love Daryl's references especially 1-L-15 .......basically you are thrusting until your right arm is straight. Thrusting down and out towards the Plane Line all the way to Both Arms Straight , Follow Through. Way past impact , or low point. Despite the fact the clubhead is moving Up and In. There is more down and out to be had than most people realize is possible, way more.
The down part is fng killing me
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"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
Doing a lot of work on mats can make a guy take out some Down out for self preservation , injury prevention reasons without him even knowing it.
On grass, picture yourself swinging a hammer, picture the ball as having a spike driven through it .....the ball is laying there in such a manner that the spike is pointed Down into the ground, sticking into the ground and pointed Out to right field. Drive that hammer right into that spike. Drive that spike staight Down and Out.
Add a horizontal hinge or an angled hinge action and a slightly closed club face at Fix and thats about it.
From you address position , what would your right arm motion be like if you threw a stone or another golf ball at your golf ball. It'd like a side armed stone skipping motion sort of, right? And so it is in golf as well for longer shots, Major Basic Strokes. "The Right Arm Throw" is a Throw.
Although for a short shot,putting ,chipping maybe there is the Push Basic , Minor Basic Stroke that is more of an in line arm extension deal that can as an option be aligned so it pushes straight towards the target or parallel left or whatever. To attempt to do this for a full shot is a common misconception for a new Hitter I think. It was for me anyways.
I love Daryl's references especially 1-L-15 .......basically you are thrusting until your right arm is straight. Thrusting down and out towards the Plane Line all the way to Both Arms Straight , Follow Through. Way past impact , or low point. Despite the fact the clubhead is moving Up and In. There is more down and out to be had than most people realize is possible, way more.
It is the down and OUT that prompted my original question -- to thrust out, it seemed that the elbow has to be somewhat under the plane (understanding that my point of view above all these planes distorts what might actually be going on!).
Regarding the "throw" feel -- I thought hitters "punched" from a somewhat higher elbow position?
I think that sums it up well, here is a photo I snapped. I just look at that and say "hack", though I am a 5 handicap down from 10 when I joined here. This is the shaft, elbow and TSP. My club started down the TSP to this point, you can see the clubhead is on the elbow plane and it continues down to just below impact.
Thats why the right elbow position was interesting to me from the original post.
I think I have an addiction that I don't quite understand, no matter how well I play or hit I can't help but thinking its just not good enough. Is that weird?
Very good picture. This is what I was talking about -- elbow below TSP.
Doing a lot of work on mats can make a guy take out some Down out for self preservation , injury prevention reasons without him even knowing it.
On grass, picture yourself swinging a hammer, picture the ball as having a spike driven through it .....the ball is laying there in such a manner that the spike is pointed Down into the ground, sticking into the ground and pointed Out to right field. Drive that hammer right into that spike. Drive that spike staight Down and Out.
Add a horizontal hinge or an angled hinge action and a slightly closed club face at Fix and thats about it.
I like that imagery. However, if I come too far from the inside, well, I've hit some wicked hooks this summer between that closed club face, strong grip and inside to out club head path! Aiming point and extensor action have helped, esp. with longer clubs.
Very good picture. This is what I was talking about -- elbow below TSP.
Yea, I think if I was going down more the right elbow with start to straighten quicker and the right forearm would get more on plane. My problem to avoid is to make sure in an effort to go down that I still have the shoulder working down plane as I tend to leave the right shoulder and drop down in some kind of perverted axis tilt.
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"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
It is the down and OUT that prompted my original question -- to thrust out, it seemed that the elbow has to be somewhat under the plane (understanding that my point of view above all these planes distorts what might actually be going on!).
Regarding the "throw" feel -- I thought hitters "punched" from a somewhat higher elbow position?
Perhaps the source of your confusion lies in the Right Forearm Flying Wedge , which is the plane of the right wrist bend...........something completely different than the Inclined Plane. They align themselves , but only briefly at Impact , prior to that the right elbow as you mention is under the Inclined Plane.
For Major Basic Strokes Homer reasoned the Right Elbow must be somewhere and so he identified the three positions......Pitch , Punch and Push. Push being normally a short shot thing. Punch can approach Pitch , Punch has a range so to speak. Its my opinion that new found Hitters think that hitting a full shot requires a Push Elbow and an in line sort of jab like arm extension.......not so for long shots. No Sir.
Its not a boxers jab its a side armed throw for full shots anyways.
To tell you the truth I dont even like Push for short shot hitting..........after a few years of goofing with it , I'm going to stay away from it I think. Never say never but.......it got kinda jabby for me. I far prefer the Bat personally.
All of this aside I do know of a really, really good golfer, a guy who lost in the semi finals of the U.S. Am a few years back that does come into impact with a Push Elbow for full shots......... there's lots of options and there's no one way to do things.
This is the shaft, elbow and TSP. My club started down the TSP to this point, you can see the clubhead is on the elbow plane and it continues down to just below impact.
Thats why the right elbow position was interesting to me from the original post.
Here's my 2 cents Canadian, 1.5 U.S. , 2 Australian.
-shifting to, from the TSP to the Elbow Plane is not a bad thing. Maybe normal, so to speak. You could argue the smaller the shift the better but thats another discussion for another day.
-the Sweet Spot Plane is what really needs to travel the Inclined Plane although the shaft is a handy reference though not quite correct. This Sweet Spot Plane is defined by your #3 pp and the sweetspot on the clubface, very basically. A line running straight from one to the other and beyond.
-your #3pp is on the TSP.
-your face is not. The extension of the Sweetspot Plane points outside the Base Line, Plane Line. Meaning you're under the Plane.
-your Right Forearm Flying Wedge is good. Its "on the table" see Lynns photos of him laying his forearm and shaft on a table top. The plane of the RFFW is the plane of the Right WRist Bend.
-What about your Left ARm Flying Wedge? What would your left wrist look like if? Using your RFFW you manipulated the Sweetspot Plane , or clubshaft if you prefer so it pointed at the Plane Line? You'd need to keep the Plane of the RFFW in tact which'd require a repositioning of the whole RFFW , a change in right elbow position. Would there be a little bend to the left wrist?
-I suspect you have loaded with a slightly off plane left hand wrist cock. The plane of the LAFW is the plane of the left hand wrist cock, a pure vertical deal. I suspect a little horizontal left wrist motion in there. Which if taken down plane from Top to where you are near Release will look just like this photo.
Its a common problem especially for guys who seek to have a literally flat left wrist instead of a "geometrically flat" left wrist.
Imagine a thin piece of tape running up the top of the clubshaft and a second piece of tape running up the top of your left arm (top here will be left hand grip type dependent). Imagine cocking the club straight up Vertically so the two tape lines stay inline on the same vertical plane. What happens to your Left Wrist? It probably isnt literally flat but a little bent, cupped .........as it should be. Geometrically flat. If the RFFW lays on table top, the LAFW lays flat against a wall. 90 degrees to each other. One along the top of the shaft the other along the aft.
If you are using a Right Forearm Takeaway it may require a slightly different arm motion to load like this.
If this seems like this helps, pm me , I have spent a lot of time fighting this move personally. The key is to figure out what causes the off plane loading. Somewhere there is a false feel that needs to be changed. For me it was the feel of max'ing out the Right Hand bend.....a false feel that arched my left wrist and took me under the plane. An RFT that Fans but doesnt Bend UP can do it too. A right elbow position that isnt aligned at Top can do it. etc etc.
It is the down and OUT that prompted my original question -- to thrust out, it seemed that the elbow has to be somewhat under the plane
Just re read this.
The clubhead , the Hands, the direction of Thrust all approach the ball from the "inside" just as the Plane dictates given any angle of inclination. Picture it from down the line......to move down plane is to move Out and Down towards the Plane Line.
A straight Plane Line has an associated Inside out approach given any inclination to the plane. A vertical plane would have only down and no out. A Horizontal Plane would have only Out and no Down.
Per 2-J-2 ".......Though its an "Inside Out" Impact its not an Inside Out Stroke unless the Plane Line crosses the Line Of Flight as depicted in photo 10-5-E" (Closed , Closed).
So in other words the direction of Thrust is not "cross line" or "across" like you say unless you construct a cross line , closed Plane Line and then thrust down and out along this new plane towards its Base Line. Thereby thrusting out "across" the original straight plane line.
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